Does your MKZ : Revel Ultima have Harsh Mid and Treble with "Voices"?

[Takeshi]

Hello MKZ Revel Ultima Owners,

 

I was wondering if anyone is having very harsh treble and mid range sound from the Revel Ultima speakers (20 speakers) specifically this does not occur on the 14 speaker setup? Whenever I play a heavy song with alot of "SSS or "TTT"  like  "Shatter Me by Lindsey Stirling" the vocals come out very sharp and you can hear a lot of Sibilance (harsh tone's coming from human voices).  I don't want to turn down the treble and the midrange all the way down as that just makes all the songs completely flat. Has anyone encountered this problem and fixed it? Did you go through Lincoln warranty or have some special other solutions? Let me know if you guys are experiencing the same thing and have any solution.

 

Thanks All!

Edited February 6, 2019 by Takeshi

[david82]

Did you ever resolve this issue?? I just had to return a brand new Navigator Reserve because of this very issue. It had the Revel Ultima upgrade, and this problem (terrible sibilance) was so bad that the audio system was literally painful to listen to -- basically any "s" in spoken material was excruciatingly harsh.

I tried several other cars on the lot with the Revel Ultima system and they all had this problem! I then tried a car with a regular Revel system (not Ultima) and it didn't have this issue. So I'm now looking for a car with the regular Revel system.

This is totally baffling to me. The Ultima system is so bad as to be basically defective in my view -- I mean, there's areas of subjective disagreement about audio quality, and then there are just obvious flaws; this is the latter. Yes, I'm an audiophile (actually, the speakers in my reference system are Revel Salon 2 Ultima 2s!); but you don't have to be to notice this issue. To be clear the quality of the Revel Ultima system is I think generally poor; the sibilance reflects way too much high end and a lack of balance. But I don't expect much from stock car stereo systems and would have kept the car if it weren't for the harshness issue which pushes it into defective territory in my view.

The only thing I can think of is that despite being "middle aged" my high frequency hearing is still completely intact (e.g., I can hear a 20kHz tone, no problem); maybe much of Lincoln's customer base as well as all of the people who designed and tested this system can't hear this problem?

What was odd is that dialing back the treble and mids didn't even seem to fix the problem! On satellite radio news the sibilance was so bad, even with treble and mids reduced, as to be simply unlistenable.

Very curious about others' experience.

 

[Takeshi]

Hi David82,

How did you the dealer to let you return a Navigator!? In California a dealer would go to court with us for trying to return an $80,000 car ?.

I actually did resolve this myself after evaluating the Lincoln Continental's Revel Ultima (By Far the best Audio System For Vehicles under 100k, only thing better is probably a Naim system from a Bentley, and a Meridian 3D Signature system inside a Range Rover Autobiography) 

There's several factors why Revel is making these noises even though it has one of the best frequency response from a factory system. 

Through a technical standpoint the combination, positioning, placement, software DSP algorithm and implementation of the below two features are to be the main cause. 

1. REVEL WAVEGUIDES built into every door optimize high-frequency dispersion, allowing a seamless blend between the tweeter and midrange speakers.
2. FIELD BALANCING SHORTING RINGS provide increased clarity so you can hear every subtle detail in a song, and reduce distortion to levels well below audibility to the human ear.

 

Their Only Two Real Models

• Lincoln Continental for Revel Ultima
  • Base pieces setup and design are the same if you look at the schematics published by Revel / Lincoln in the link above . It shows 80 mm Mid and 25 mm Tweeter being used for  center channel, doors, and back / trunk compartment, and 170mm woofers being used for each door. 
  • MKZ's and MKX/Nautilus System is based on the Lincoln Continental's Platform with slight variation due to room and fitment of certain pieces. 
    • MKZ Cons :
      • Two 6x9 Subwoofers Clear, but not as Deep as Continentals 10 Inch sub woofer
      • The main reason for Sibilance is the Tweeter and Midrange separation as they are houses in two different vertical location.
        • In a Regular Revel system there are no midrange in the back doors and no extra Midrange Speakers and tweeters in the trunk/rear deck to produce the extra Harmonics.
        • The Continental and the Nautilus / MKX are placed in the same housing in a horizontal orientated location
    • Nautilus / MKX Cons:
      • Pretty much a speaker copy of the Continental except for a much larger spread and placement of speaker  throughout the Cabin thus thus range and sound quality in which the sound spreads does not fully encompass the cabin space.
• Lincoln Aviator for Revel Ultima 3D
  • The Lincoln Navigator Borrows from the design 3D Design of the Lincoln Aviator.  Using similar sized and placement of  woofer, tweeters, and Mid Range speakers for both models with some key difference that produces the Sibilance and lack of 3D.
  • Lincoln Aviator: Perfect System with 3D
    • Extra 8 Ceiling Speakers Producing Midrange and Highs to Fill in the higher space and Cabin Gap.
    • Has the tweeter and Midrange speakers placed in the same housing in a horizontal orientated location on the doors. 
  • Lincoln Navigator Cons:
    • Cabin has no 8 Ceiling Speakers Producing Midrange and Highs to Fill in the higher space and Cabin Gap.
    • The main reason for Sibilance is the Tweeter and Midrange separation as they are houses in two different vertical location.

The Fix (Surprised Anyone made it this far):

• Slide Midrange setting to +4 through Max to the right. Lower Treble by -2 or -3 on the Tone setting 
• +3 To Right on Bass for Bass-heads  :3
• Never use Audience Quantum Logic Sound Setting : For Purest Sound Turn Quantum Logic Sound Setting Off.
  • It's counterintuitive from a tuning perspective considering "S" frequency would be produced by the Mid's and Treble's
  • However this is all due to the DSP "Digital signal processing" installed by the factory.  
    • Since these system were based on one Model or two (depending how you view them [Continental / Aviator]) 
    • The sounds were designed to have both the Tweeter and the Midrange Speaker to be housed together in a horizontal alignment so that they reach your ear at the same time. 
    • Hence there is no Sibilance inside a Continental or Nautilus/ MKX vehicles.
  • The DSP is tuned to have recessed Midrange Vocals, this in turns highlights or accentuates the High Frequencies due to the Midrange being recessed.
    • Normally this would be a problem in the Tweeters and Midrange was housed next to each other vertically reaching your ears at the same time.
    • In practice and reality this the problem as the Midrange is delayed and soften when it reaches your ears doing to be at a different position and having it's sound signature recessed due to the DSP.
• Thus raising the Midrange to the MAX Causes Two Things
  • Detunes the High Frequency in which the Vocals will fill in the original High Frequency gap. IE (Hear less "SSSS' and more Song : words)
  • Causes a higher output and more dominant Frequency travel through the Air as these Midrange frequencies are delayed physically due to their location comparatively to the Tweeters.  : IE Accounts for Lack of Midrange intensity lost due to speaker placement.

 

I hope this helped you understand how Revel Works a little more.

 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Takeshi
Did More Testing.

[JRW]

I am one of those with "golden ears", according to the dealer............. the sound in my 2017 MKZ Reserve 3.0 AWD is the WORST vocal response of pretty much any vehicle I have owned in my roughly 48 years of driving!

 

I'm trying the recommendation above, and will post if I notice an improvement.

 

Regards!

JRW

[bbf2530]

3 hours ago, JRW said:

I am one of those with "golden ears", according to the dealer............. the sound in my 2017 MKZ Reserve 3.0 AWD is the WORST vocal response of pretty much any vehicle I have owned in my roughly 48 years of driving!

 

I'm trying the recommendation above, and will post if I notice an improvement.

 

Regards!

JRW

 

Hi JRW. Yes, please post back with your results.

[Takeshi]

Hi JRW,

 

Is it an MKZ 3.0T with Revel System (14 speakers) or Revel Ultima (20 Speakers with Metal speaker Covers) ?  Usually the voices are Stronger or more Sharp in Revel Ultima vs Regular Revel due to extra midrange in back doors and back shelf and tweeters in back shelf, which is why I recommend maxing it on the Tone settings or at least putting it plus 4 From Center and lowering treble. 

Edited October 18, 2019 by Takeshi

[JRW]

It is the Ultima..............

 

I followed your suggestions (although they were very close to what I had selected already), and do notice a subtle difference in vocals--they are a tad less harsh. Thanks for that advice.

 

However that said: with a 20 speaker HK-designed system---we shouldn't need to "tweak settings" to be able to turn it on! When I first discussed this situation with the dealer, a tech told me this is a fault Lincoln/HK are aware of, and that they have released 2 software updates to the XM decompression algorithm. They supposedly applied these to my stack-- with no noticeable difference.

 

The dealer is also able, supposedly, to "calibrate" the system--- again, something which didn't seem to alter my sound.

 

Of course, there's also the chance they have been trying to mollify me!

[Takeshi]

That's great that it helped a little ?. Wait are you listening to only XM or are you listening also via a streaming service or your own local files? Have you tried a FLAC , AAC or WAV File (lossless audio files). I do know Clari-Fi by HK is turned on all the time on Ultima, the worse the source like XM / Sirius / FM the more the song is altered due to Clari-Fi Algorithm. I completely Agree 20 Speaker tuned by HK-Revel is total half assed as they just port over majority of the parts and spatial time sync algorithms from the Continental (if you get a chance you should totally go demo the Ultima sound in one : Sounds Phenomenal) / Aviator and hope it works on other Car structures ?. The dealer doesn't know squat about NVHM or what HK-Revel Engineers do with sound Algorithms.  The dealer just want to mollify you by just resetting the software and resetting the sound setting to  system default  and collecting their easy Warranty money from Lincoln... 

[sharkdrivel]

I have an MKZ with the Ultima system and believe it is exceptional, however it sounds mediocre with XM radio and with FM HD, just okay with bluetooth and podcasts. I mostly use FLAc files on a usb stick or 320 mp3 files (usb and ipod) to listen to, and have found the sound to be flat, detailed and dynamic, one of the best systems out there

[hifiman]

Just stumbled on this thread and its worth its weight in gold! 

 

I am looking at picking up a Corsair grand touring hybrid with the Revel 14 speaker system. I now know that this is the best option now!

 

Thought about picking up a MKZ black label hybrid with the Ultima system before.

[JRW]

On 10/16/2019 at 11:30 PM, bbf2530 said:

 

Hi JRW. Yes, please post back with your results.

 

Well, after reaching 60K miles on my 2017 reserve 3.0TT Revel Ultima system. (I had posted the section in quotes along with others on this topic a couple of years ago).

 

Unfortunately, nothing (IMHO) overcomes the type, and placements, of the speakers excellently described by TAKESHI, above. I've had 2 supposed dealer-only system software upgrades, and have tried about every combination of tone control allowed---to no avail. I wish now I had returned the vehicle when I bought it. I like everything ELSE about this car---but the sound is SO bad they should have decided not to SELL the MKZ/Ultima combination.

[Zondedo]

There is some good information in this thread.  Although Ultima test results using calibrated equipment show excellent specs I can see why some people have the issue noted above with the Ultima system.  I am an audiophile and appreciate good equipment. I learned long ago that garbage in = garbage out.  Most of the time my music source is compressed audio from my cell phone.  People should be looking at their EQ settings on their source device to ensure that the midrange frequencies are set properly.  Personally I very much dislike the sound of a flat frequency response and de emphasize the midrange frequencies.  Every recording is different and needs adjustment.  Personally I am happy with the investment I made with the Ultima system and enjoy it every time I drive the car.

Edited May 28, 2021 by Zondedo

[JRW]

Thanks for your input........ I use as many HD or lossless files as possible. My 2004 Acura TL-S sounded awesome with (hard to find) HD material. So now I use local HD FM. Sirius so bad I don't use it at all. Never use streamng or iphone as source.

 

Personally using +3 mid, -2 high, -2 bass.

 

That said-- I remain disappointed with the Ultima system in a $60K car!

[TomV]

I've had both the standard Revel amp (built 05/08/2019) and now Revel Ultima amp (built 05/26/2017) in my car. I have a thread detailing the upgrade installation if interested. The only thing non-Ultima I have are the standard speaker grills, not the silver metal speaker grilles.

 

I after the upgrade, I can tell you the Revel Ultima is less harsh in the treble. The class AB amps for all 7 tweeters sounds smoother and with a little less output. The standard Revel class D amps actually had more power on the tweeters. The mid range sounds great to me with default equalization. I'm actually impressed in how clearly I can hear artists vocals. The FLAC files I play are ripped from various CD's that I've listened to for years on all kinds of audio systems. If I was to complain about anything, it would be the lack of a real subwoofer.

 

Zondedo is correct that with the Revel systems "crap in equals crap out". The source signal is very important in order to hear clean, truly high-fidelity audio. Pour source material is probably the biggest problem Revel owners are faced with.

 

If you believe you have harsh mid and treble with voices, find another Lincoln MKZ owner with Revel Ultima that will let you listen to it. See if you can determine if it's your particular system or just the Revel tuning that bothers you. If the other system sounds better, you could purchase a used Ultima amplifier of another build date and try it out... install is just plug and play in the trunk. For a couple hundred dollars, you might be able make your $60K car more enjoyable. If you're close to north east Ohio, we could meet up and try my amplifier.

 

 

[Zondedo]

On 5/28/2021 at 6:25 PM, JRW said:

Thanks for your input........ I use as many HD or lossless files as possible. My 2004 Acura TL-S sounded awesome with (hard to find) HD material. So now I use local HD FM. Sirius so bad I don't use it at all. Never use streamng or iphone as source.

 

Personally using +3 mid, -2 high, -2 bass.

 

That said-- I remain disappointed with the Ultima system in a $60K car!

Using lossless or HD files is a good start but it does not guarantee good sound.  That unfortunately is up to the recording engineer and as I mentioned a flat frequency response to me sounds horrible with too much emphasis on the mid range.  My point is that every recording has flaws regardless of the source quality and reducing mid range frequencies is usually required to make it tolerable on any system.  

Edited June 11, 2021 by Zondedo

[Takeshi]

Ninja-ing on here after 2.5 Years of parting with my Lincoln Lemon. I still miss the Revel Ultima sound system the most even though it's flawed XD. You cannot have everything from Driving dynamics to a good sound system with a comfy ride unless you buy like a Bentley Continental... 

 

I've been through three cars after the Lincoln. 

1. 2018 Orange Ford Mustang GT with Shaker (450 Watt 12 Speajer Piece of Crap no bass or clarity)
2. 2019 Black Ford Mustang GT with B&O Better (1000 Watt 12 Speaker with some clarity and a lot of Muddy Bass)
3. [Current] 2020 BMW M340i with Harman Karden (464 Watt Watt 16 Speaker with decent clarity and some Bass)

• Overall the Revel 20 Speaker Ultimata has one of the best sound clarify of Frequency reproduction. 
  • However Shame on you Lincoln for reusing the same Algorithm DSP Amplifier Box for the MKZ it should of been a different algorithm so that way the MIDS Reach my ears at the same time as the treble not causing the crazy S's and T's shrieks of Sibilance because none of my new cars even come close to the harsh shrieks.
  • NO IT IS NOT a source problem. It is ultimately Lincoln's problem for using the the exact same Continental Modeled DSP / Amp for the MKZ with different speaker placements which the DSP timings will not align in which results in the consequence of Sibilance production.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by Takeshi

[TomV]

Takeshi it's good to hear from you again. I agree that Lincoln Revel is one of the best sounding OEM systems in the market today.

 

Since you've last been on this forum, I actually upgraded my 14 spkr Revel system to the 20 spkr Ultima (there is a separate thread on that project) and I'm not experiencing any Sibilance problem. My Ultima Amplifier/DSP has a 20170526 date code, so perhaps I got a unit with a better tune. I also don't have the silver metal grills, but I doubt those impact sound quality or they wouldn't have been used. I believe the Revel Ultima system sounds excellent, providing the source music is high quality (HD Radio, FLAC, CD). 

 

I also don't detect any speaker timing problems, as if the Continental tune was loaded into the MKZ. The Continental front tweeters are farther forward of the mid range driver, where as the MKZ has the mid range driver below the tweeter. My front sound stage blends the drivers very well and I've never seen any article or post that Revel didn't tune each vehicle model separately.

 

The only things it's missing from the Revel systems (in my opinion) is low end output and power. I added a JL Audio  10" powered sub under the rear deck and that has definitely helped with the low end, however it still has the factory roll off under 30Hz. As far as more power, I'm stuck with the factory amplifier. If I wanted more volume, I'd have to get rid of the factory Amplifier/DSP completely and use an A2B convertor (mObridge or ZEN) with aftermarket audio equipment.

[Takeshi]

Hey Tom,

 

Thanks for the follow up.

 

There might be two factors that could make this differences that makes your system sound better :)! 

 

One is you have a newer hardware revision of the AMP (Learned this from BMW, they sent out a mass SIB for HK [TSB ford equiv] showing certain bad amps during a certain time period from Harman Kardon)  versus my early 2017 model Amp built with Corona beer Friday.

 

Guess Don't Quote : The use the two different Front Mid-Range speakers. HP5Z-18808-F seems like it's specifically for the 20 Speaker system Versus DP5Z-18808-H which seems to indicate it being used in both the 11 and 14 Speaker system (If this is true still Shame on Lincoln for reusing the Mid Range speaker lol).  Did you only change the rear mid range speakers when you did the upgrade? 

 

Nice congrats on your extra low end! It must be thumping in your sweet ride! 

 

 

[TomV]

Since my vehicle didn't come with rear mid range speakers, I had to custom install some mids from a Continental. I sourced whatever I could from wrecked Lincolns on ebay. They look identical to the MKZ mids, except for the the location of the mounting tabs. I've got to assume that Lincoln/Revel used the same basic speaker driver design in all the models, with the only differences being in mounting or color. This reuse would be done for cost savings when factoring in the thousands of drivers needed over the entire production range.

 

CONTINENTAL FA1T-18808-EB

 

My front mids should be the same as an Ultima car, however the tweeters in a true Ultima car are obviously silver and have an illuminated "R" logo.

 

I've also researched the components on both the 14 and 20 channel amplifiers. They use the same HARMAN custom DSP chip. This is where all the tuning magic happens for our cars. I suspect there are some minor differences or tweaks in tuning between models or revisions. I had also read that each amplifier channel was precision calibrated during manufacturing before being shipped to Lincoln factories.

 

HARMAN DSP

 

 

Check out the upgrade thread if you get some free time.